2 Responses to elohim by louis cladder

1. Kathlyn Fauchon says:

   December 20, 2009 at 1:52 pm

   Thank you Louis. Those pasages are so very dear to me. In the OT or Torah I especially like the verses toward the end of Genesis 1 where God (Elohim) says “Let US make man in OUR own image”. There are other similar passages too.
   In April I have to write an article about the names for God and/or Jesus for an ezine. I’ve been given a long list from which to choose. I’m thinking Elohim or maybe Jehovah/Adoni. Some of the names in the list a new to me.
2. Luis Manuel Alves Garcia says:

   February 13, 2010 at 10:43 am

   Greetings to everyone from Portugal!

   Hello Louis. I have read your “the gospel of John” post and found it most interesting.

   However, some of the statements there are not true, as I will try to prove and demonstrate. You first start by quoting Isaiah 48:16, but you do not reference from which Bible it was taken from, so I assume it must have been King James Version, a translation not known for accuracy and quite “worked on” over the centuries by various religious denominations to fit their creed… Please, allow me to quote the same passage, but this time taken from “The New Jerusalem Bible” (ISBN 0-232-51930-7) and compare:

   “Come near and listen to this: from the first, I never spoke obscurely; when it happened, I WAS THERE, AND NOW LORD YAHWEH HAS SENT ME WITH HIS SPIRIT.” – Isaiah 48:16

   So, here we clearly see that “someone” (Yahushuah?, the Son…?) was sent by the Father/YAHWEH and the Father doesn’t “hold more entities” than Himself alone. Two separate entities. He, YAHWEH, the Father, is, indeed, One and One alone as we will see. The Son – Yahushuah, the Messiah – operates THROUGH the Father’s power and UNDER his commandements and will. This intimate relationship has led some people to believe they are the same entity but this is not true. Yes, “Elohim” holds the plural, but for the two entities alone: the Father (YAHWEH) and the Son (Yahushuah). The Spirit – or Ruah – here belongs only to the Father even if it is also present in the Son, when the Son of God walked among men.

   Now, for the Gospel of Jonh, I believe you stated John 1:1, a passage quite famous for the controversy regarding this “trinity” or “godhead” doctrine (by the way, “trinity”/”godhead” is an historically proven pagan doctrine, strange to the true Early Christians and even among true Jews) so, I’m transcribing it again and we will analyze it but from the original Greek perspective – as you know, the New Testament was written in Koiné Greek, not Hebrew – and so we have:

   “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” – John 1:1 (New International Version)

   Now, here we have the statement that God (the Father) and His Son (The Word, or “logos”, in Greek) were together in the beginning. This is true, no issues here as we wil see next. It also states that the Son (“logos”) was (i.e., “existed”) from the very beginning of Time. This is also true as we will see next.

   The problem arises with “…and the Word was God…”. This is not true. If we look down to the Greek ‘original’ sentence, this is what we will find:

   “εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος” – 1881 Westcott-Hort New Testament

   Which renders as follows:

   “In beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was ‘a’ god.” ["was 'A' GOD" and not "WAS GOD"]

   If we continue down to verse 2:

   “ουτος ην εν αρχη προς τον θεον”.

   Or: “This one was in beginning with God.”

   Moving down to verse 3:

   “παντα δι αυτου εγενετο και χωρις αυτου εγενετο ουδε εν ο γεγονεν”.

   Which renders: “All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came to existence”,

   which verifies that the Son, “Logos”, Yahushuah was, in fact, with the Father YAHWEH from the very beginning, and thus the “elohim” expression as plural. So, your statement “At the other hand, the Word is completely God.”, should be rendered “At the other hand, the Word is ‘a’ god”. The Messiah himself (Yahushuah) said that we, humans, are also ‘gods’. See John 10:31-39 and Psalm 82:6. Here:

   “Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me? “We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are gods’? If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came — and the Scripture cannot be broken — what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.” – John 10:31-39 (New International Version)

   Beautiful, isn’t it…? If we go down to Psalm 82:6, we will read:

   “I said, ‘You are “gods”;
   you are all sons of the Most High.’ – Psalm 82:6 (New International Version)

   I believe this would be enough but I even go down to the most evident and powerful proof that the Father (YAHWEH) and the Son (Yahushuah) are not the same person, nor have the same glory, although they are very close. Let’s go down to the Gospel of Matthew. Please, look at Matthew 24:36 and let us reason:

   “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” – Matthew 24:36 (New International Version)

   We see absolutely clear here, that the Father (YAHWEH) and the Son (Yahushuah) DO NOT SHARE the same knowledge about the exact time when the Day of YAHWEH comes. This clearly demonstrates what has been claimed before, regarding the fact that God and the Son do not share exactly the same glory, otherwise the Son would also know the exact time when the End comes. Not even the angels know about it…

   Finally, as for the 1st letter of John 5:7 as follows:

   “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” (King James, quoting your own citation)

   This is one of the best examples of the bad and dangerous translation which King James Version of the Bible can provide…

   The original Greek renders (1 John 5:7-10):

   “οτι τρεις εισιν οι μαρτυρουντες

   το πνευμα και το υδωρ και το αιμα και οι τρεις εις το εν εισιν

   ει την μαρτυριαν των ανθρωπων λαμβανομεν η μαρτυρια του θεου μειζων εστιν οτι αυτη εστιν η μαρτυρια του θεου οτι μεμαρτυρηκεν περι του υιου αυτου

   ο πιστευων εις τον υιον του θεου εχει την μαρτυριαν εν αυτω ο μη πιστευων τω θεω ψευστην πεποιηκεν αυτον οτι ου πεπιστευκεν εις την μαρτυριαν ην μεμαρτυρηκεν ο θεος περι του υιου αυτου” – 1 John 5:7-10 (1881 Westcott-Hort New Testament)

   And translating:

   “For there are three that testify: the[a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. We accept man’s testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son.” – 1 John 5:7-10 (New International Version)

   Footnotes:
   1 John 5:8 Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8 And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the sixteenth century)
   New International Version (NIV)
   Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by Biblica

   I sincerelly hope this helps to enlight and shed some truth upon some erroneous ideas people might have. I also used to think like that in terms of “Trinity” and “Godhead”. I hope I’ve helped to clarify the doctrines and traditions of Men. Please apologise for the bad formatting of the text. I leave some of the text sources for you to verify for yourself, if you wish to do so:

   http://www.biblegateway.com/

   http://www.catholic.org/bible/

   http://books.google.pt/books?id=Ao0NAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=the+emphatic+diaglott&source=bl&ots=wINI4pz9E2&sig=bv-u9JoyCAmlsVCBQTNPb24IjMI&hl=pt-PT&ei=3_B2S-m3B6eW4gaIwuDHCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBQQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=&f=false

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emphatic_Diaglott

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Testament_in_the_Original_Greek

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontrinitarianism

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godhead_(Judaism)

   Thank you and if you wish to discuss this matter into more detail, please drop me a line or two at: neo.berean@gmail.com

   (DISCLAIMER: I am not affiliated to any religious organization whatsoever and I am a Sabbatarian Christian)

   “Veritas est liberitas”.

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